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1 laZardo  Fri, May 27, 2011 12:45:49am

Considering that European center-rightists are actually to the left of American "center-rightists," I shudder to consider the magnitude of exactly how much deficiency is hardwired in the brain of the American conservative.

2 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Fri, May 27, 2011 12:48:46am

re: #1 laZardo

Considering that European center-rightists are actually to the left of American "center-rightists," I shudder to consider the magnitude of exactly how much deficiency is hardwired in the brain of the American conservative.

An excellent point. Again, I must caution that as good scientists, we should not jump to conclusions. We must not discount confounding factors. American Conservatism may well be caused by other things as well. Mental retardation (in the clinical sense of the word) can not be discounted as a leading contributor to conservatism in America, for example.

3 laZardo  Fri, May 27, 2011 12:56:55am

re: #2 LudwigVanQuixote

It's probably nurture as much as nature. A lot of extreme-left and mainstream-right "intellectuals" come from well-landed backgrounds. Yet the leftists reach out toward poorer communities while American conservatives try appealing mainly to the middle class.

4 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Fri, May 27, 2011 1:06:10am

re: #3 laZardo

I think you make a very good point.

If you consider the average Fox viewer, you must also consider the ravages of fetal alcohol syndrome, inbreeding, too much NASCAR, growing up in a place like Oklahoma or Kansas where there finishing 12th grade is considered educated, country music etc...

5 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Fri, May 27, 2011 1:07:49am

There are just so many confounding factors.

6 researchok  Fri, May 27, 2011 4:00:05am

It isn't often I disagree with LVQ, but this whole idea, that certain groups of people are somehow 'less than' because of what they believe is absurd- and has a history that has led to much real and profound grief.

There are entire cultures, groups and religions that are predicated on more conservative principals and values.

Are they somehow inferior?

7 researchok  Fri, May 27, 2011 4:09:48am

One more thing- would you assess the politics of the 'progressive' anti Israel movement- which is huge- as an example of left wing intellectual 'superiority'?

There are other examples.

Does much of the progressive affinity for individuals like mass murderer Che Guevara or the likes of Fidel Castro speak highly of an ethical or moral stand?

8 Randall Gross  Fri, May 27, 2011 4:25:30am

Confirmation bias seeking a paper.... I detest non scientific studies parading as real papers. This is garbage, and probably funded by a stink tank seeking a particular result.

9 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Fri, May 27, 2011 5:24:41am

re: #6 researchok

re: #8 Thanos

I thought I was pretty clear we can't use this to jump to conclusions. Guys tongue in cheek! There was a lot of sarcasm there. I was enjoying my snark.

All tongue and cheek aside. The first paper clearly has much too small a sample size to be really meaningful and further, I am not at all clear that it could possibly remove any number of confounding factors.

The second paper though does seem to have a little more ring of truth to it - but still has issues I would want to see resolved before accepting it.

It is not at all unreasonable to assume that mechanisms in the brain directly effect cognition and personality. While I am not at all interested or knowledgeable enough to get into a full scale nature vs. nurture discussion, it is fascinating that both seem clearly in play with the second paper.

There is a requirement to have certain machinery. Yet, without a certain amount of socialization, that machinery does not fully express itself.
I see the second paper with its sample of 2000 to be compelling enough to consider a little more seriously because it already involves both nature and nurture in its findings.

That said it is pretty clear that the second paper also needs to clearly explain many other issues that might result in a hidden selection bias. Is it possible without this machinery, that is claimed to be correlated with acceptance of new ideas something, a behavior that could be learned anyway? Is it possible that in a wider sample we might find self identified liberals without this machinery. What is actually determining what a liberal or conservative is anyway? This is the biggest issue since the words these days have very little meaning except to the individual using them. Liberal and conservative certainly don't mean in practice what I used to think the meant anymore. Correlation is indeed not causation.

10 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Fri, May 27, 2011 5:26:26am

re: #7 researchok

Dude. Do you really think I was serious about this post scientifically? Also, have you ever seen me give a moonbat a pass?

11 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Fri, May 27, 2011 6:18:35am

re: #6 researchok

It isn't often I disagree with LVQ, but this whole idea, that certain groups of people are somehow 'less than' because of what they believe is absurd- and has a history that has led to much real and profound grief.

There are entire cultures, groups and religions that are predicated on more conservative principals and values.

Are they somehow inferior?

Also now turning serious. I hear you and I absolutely understand the dangers of saying that certain groups are "less than" for their beliefs. I also understand the grim history of such things.

However, being a devil's advocate, I must ask:

Is someone whose beliefs are clearly delusional or psychotic (or both) to the extent that they are a danger to themselves and others not obviously "less than" in an absolute sense of the phrase. These things are called mental diseases for a reason. They are not good things to have.

Is an amoral and sadistic sociopath, a serial killer etc... not clearly "less than?" Take the sting out of your words "less than" and the baggage out of those words for a moment. Something is clearly abnormal there in a bad way that clearly produces a functional level far outside of healthy or normal.

If we do establish that for certain grievous mental states and conditions things are clearly "less than" to use your phrase, even in the extreme case, we can then establish a spectrum.

12 researchok  Fri, May 27, 2011 7:45:05am

re: #10 LudwigVanQuixote

re: #11 LudwigVanQuixote

Ludwig-

My apologies- I was off my game- I missed the snark!

Onwards.

There are mental diseases, defined virtually always, by behaviors. What a person believes helps define an identity. No more, no less.

Now, as you note, a person who might be a danger to himself or others posses a pathology that transcends beliefs and or ideologies. Those people are treated in the same way irrespective of their beliefs or ideologies (though a proper interpretation of those beliefs might be be used in treatment. Well trained Christian, Jewish or Muslim psychiatrists can be mosr helpful in redirection unhealthy religious expressions, for example).

Now to answer your 'less than' remark, let me be clear: Those who are mentally ill are definitively 'less than' in the sense they cannot be be fully functioning or accountable. That is why we have laws allowing us to separate/isolate them from society or even the legal system, based on behaviors.

The more interesting 'less than' question arises when discussing other cultures. Are isolated tribal groups 'less than' us? Are technology deprived groups 'less than'?

On the one hand the answer is clearly yes. A society with no hospitals or modern medical care is indeed 'less than' a society that has those resources, in the same way a society or culture that has no wheel is not equivalent to one that does.

That said, so what? The moral and ethical questions as to whether or not those 'less than' societies warrant our intervention is an altogether different question that may or may not reflect certain moral and ethical values- and absolutely not reflective of political beliefs.

Further and often lost in the conversation are the 'less than' societies and cultures that mimic more advanced societies. For example, the Arab world consumes the same products we do but has yet to produce in a meaningful way. Thus, we see groups who predicate their political beliefs based on an exterior and shallow view only. Without getting into it too deeply, societies that consume are very different from societies that produce- and make no mistake, the establishment of a Palestinian state will not change that overnight.

China on the other hand relies on production as a priority with consumption their brass ring. This is a very different environment. A culture and soceity where production is a priority is a society that values education. That is seen in China and SK for example. In societies where consumption is a priority education is less important.

The nature/nurture debate is at once simple and complex and highlights why

Every living organism is influenced nu nature/nurture and that influence changes every day.

Anyway, I could go on and on and I'm probably boring you to tears.

That said, I love this stuff the way you love quarks or the dark holes or or string theory or ice cream.

13 Interesting Times  Fri, May 27, 2011 7:59:17am

re: #12 researchok

In societies where consumption is a priority education is less important.

Oh dear. That sounds very much like the path America is getting on :(

As to the rest of this debate, we desperately, desperately need a mutually agreed-upon definition of the terms "liberal" and "conservative". As LVQ remarked, they no longer mean what they used to, and rather than using them at all, I'd prefer to define specific beliefs - as in:

- evolution denier
- climate change denier
- anti-gay
- anti-choice
- anti-Muslim
- anti-separation of church and state
- anti-government programs (unless it benefits them)
- pro-torture/authoritarian as long as "their guy" is in charge
- Randian economic views

...is widely considered a litmus test for the modern GOP base. They call themselves "conservative", and claim you can't call yourself one unless you subscribe to all of the above. I prefer to call them reactionaries, but thanks to Fox, they've successfully hijacked the word "conservative", it seems.

14 Almost Killed by Space Hookers  Fri, May 27, 2011 8:02:17am

re: #12 researchok

Of course you love this stuff. It makes for a fantastic discussion.

So many points you bring up.

The distinction about belief, identity and behavior is very subtle one.

Again to use an extreme case because establishing endpoints helps me to discuss the middle...

Are not the beliefs (in the broad sense of the word as in things believed to be true) of the serial killer a motivation for his behavior? Certainly so for the mass murderer.

Are not the beliefs of those who kill abortion doctors part of the issue and moreover do they not stem from a certain identity?

Further, if a culture instills such beliefs and applauds such behaviors, is it not less than to use the phrase we have been using?

15 researchok  Fri, May 27, 2011 8:29:29am

re: #14 LudwigVanQuixote

Of course you love this stuff. It makes for a fantastic discussion.

So many points you bring up.

The distinction about belief, identity and behavior is very subtle one.

Again to use an extreme case because establishing endpoints helps me to discuss the middle...

Are not the beliefs (in the broad sense of the word as in things believed to be true) of the serial killer a motivation for his behavior? Certainly so for the mass murderer.

Are not the beliefs of those who kill abortion doctors part of the issue and moreover do they not stem from a certain identity?

Further, if a culture instills such beliefs and applauds such behaviors, is it not less than to use the phrase we have been using?

I have to leave shortly but I will come back and address the issues you raise.

Still, it is not beliefs that 'undo' a human. It is his behaviors.

Lots of people believe crazy things. That may make them outliers but no more.

Are religious people (unsophisticated, for example) who believe in Creation 'less than'?

Now to be clear, religious people are not all abortion doctor murderers. They separate their beliefs from their behaviors. Those things cannot be conflated. The serial killer may use some skewed beliefs as a delivery vehicle for his pathology but that person is driven by his pathology, not his beliefs.

More later.

16 researchok  Fri, May 27, 2011 8:30:54am

re: #13 publicityStunted

Oh dear. That sounds very much like the path America is getting on :(

As to the rest of this debate, we desperately, desperately need a mutually agreed-upon definition of the terms "liberal" and "conservative". As LVQ remarked, they no longer mean what they used to, and rather than using them at all, I'd prefer to define specific beliefs - as in:

- evolution denier
- climate change denier
- anti-gay
- anti-choice
- anti-Muslim
- anti-separation of church and state
- anti-government programs (unless it benefits them)
- pro-torture/authoritarian as long as "their guy" is in charge
- Randian economic views

...is widely considered a litmus test for the modern GOP base. They call themselves "conservative", and claim you can't call yourself one unless you subscribe to all of the above. I prefer to call them reactionaries, but thanks to Fox, they've successfully hijacked the word "conservative", it seems.

Again, beliefs are very different from behaviors.

You raise an interesting point, though.

I'll be back later to address them.

17 researchok  Fri, May 27, 2011 2:07:25pm

PS

'Liberal' and 'conservative' denote political identity, or more precisely, the group of people who share common beliefs.

Neither group produces more or less bad behaviors because bad behaviors are pathologies that transcend communal or tribal identities. There are murderers of all political persuasions. Their politics did not make them murderers. For every thousand right wingers who commit crimes in the name of their beliefs, there are an equal number of people who identify with so called liberal planks who also commit crimes.

If ideas alone are somehow 'proof' of some kind of 'lesser than' or inferiority, that is a very slippery slope. What is a good idea today may very well be a bad idea tomorrow and so on.

Still, you raise an interesting point- how change ought to be reflected and measured. You are in fact pointing to the Fukayama-Berman 'debate'.

Francis Fukuyama essentially believes that real progress happens when the best of the past is retained as we move forward.

Marshall Berman posits that there is no progress until the past is rejected and overturned.

There is one more distinction I'd like to make. Conservatism is not the GOP, or at least, it ought not be. I consider myself a conservative though I hardly support the GOP planks of today. The party has chosen to pander to the religious right and to date that choice has proved to be disastrous. I certainly want no part of that.

Here's a thought: Independent voters are more important today than ever. Why? Because independents refuse to tow a particular party line. What that really means is simple- they want both parties to table their best ideas and cooperate. When either the liberals or conservatives bicker and attempt to rip each other apart, they push independents to the opposite side. There is no cooperation or even a pretense of such. Partisan politics and demonization only push independents away.

Simply disagreeing with an idea does not invalidate that person. If that persons behavior is offensive or potentially dangerous, that is a whole other story.

More later if you want to continue.

I need to recover from some outpatient surgery.

18 Interesting Times  Fri, May 27, 2011 5:25:26pm

re: #17 researchok

Ouch, hope the surgery wasn't for something serious! As for the rest of your post, I think you're talking about something rather separate from the point I'm trying to make, which is - who cares about labels per sae? I'm concerned about what beliefs and behaviors those labels are meant to apply to at this point in time.

If ideas alone are somehow 'proof' of some kind of 'lesser than' or inferiority, that is a very slippery slope. What is a good idea today may very well be a bad idea tomorrow and so on.

Er, that depends on the idea, does it not? Isn't female genital mutilation a stupid, brutal belief that could never be valid in any emotionally healthy or remotely well-adjusted culture?

Or, to be more general - shouldn't we care about the actions and consequences an idea will have once put into practice? That's what my list above means - every single one of those "ideas" will have bad to horrid consequences if acted upon.

What that really means is simple- they want both parties to table their best ideas and cooperate.

If one party is offering hideously unreasonable ideas and the other isn't, a "compromise" is rather undesirable, is it not? Take the ME conflict - Hamas wants Jews exterminated, and Israel most obviously doesn't. That may be an extreme example, but it shows all ideas are not created equal and "compromise" depends entirely on what's on offer.

Another example to consider: two people who believe homosexuality is a sin. Person One goes on to believe it's solely between the gay person and God, and not his place to intervene. Person Two goes on to believe it's a sin destroying society and that he's commanded by God to do something about it.

Which person is more likely to engage in violence against gays? Do you see how they both have the same starting belief, but then another "bridge belief", serving as a path to action or lack thereof?

I guess what I'm saying is I can't relate to your argument because it feels too black-and-white, too "either-or". Beliefs and behavior aren't nearly as discrete as you seem to be stating. They directly influence and feed upon each other, for better or worse.


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